25 DECEMBER 1940EVENINGDr. Manilal had a warm cloth wrapped around his head and was sitting leaning against the small book case. When Sri Aurobindo sat up on the edge of the bed, he looked at him. SRI AUROBINDO: You are looking like one of the pictures of Ajanta, thinking the world to be a burden and being cold and miserable. (Laughter) NIRODBARAN: Today he has put on one more vest. DR. MANILAL : That can be easily taken off. I was not feeling cold but to prevent any draught I put it on. SRI AUROBINDO: I was speaking of your expression; you were looking like an incarnation of suffering. DR. MANILAL : But I am supposed to be very jolly, Sir. SRI AUROBINDO: But at that moment you were not! (laughter) Some time later the Mother came and, soon after Sri Aurobindo's daily walk, Dr. Manilal left. PURANI: Indra Sen wants to know if the cosmic descent could correspond to the yogic descent in any way. SRI AUROBINDO: No, the yogic descent is a process of unveiling while the cosmic descent is involutionary, a process of veiling. PURANI: Yes, I also said something like that. 26 DECEMBER 1940We heard from Usha that Sachin's daughter had improved after receiving the Mother's flower. She has been brought to Calcutta. SRI AUROBINDO: Have the doctors diagnosed her condition? I haven't heard anything. Page -987 DR. MANILAL : Regarding diagnosis the doctors are at sea — SRI AUROBINDO: They generally are. (Laughter) If only one doctor is concerned, it is not so bad a situation. DR. MANILAL : Can you not help us with your knowledge? SRI AUROBINDO: That would be too much work for me. DR. MANILAL : I don't mean in every case, only in difficult cases. SRI AUROBINDO: It would establish a precedent. (Laughter) DR. MANILAL : But you can know the right diagnosis and suitable treatment in a case. SRI AUROBINDO: That is a medical question. PURANI: Sri Aurobindo and the Mother can as well cure a case straight away instead of bothering about all that. EVENING DR. MANILAL : If Joan of Arc was a saint, how could she be burnt alive, Sir? SRI AUROBINDO: She was declared a saint only some years ago! And what did you have in mind? Many saints have been killed, burnt, riddled with arrows. NIRODBARAN: Christ was crucified. DR. MANILAL : Some say it is not true. (Laughter) PURANI: How? It is written in the books! (laughter) DR. MANILAL : They hold a procession now in memory of Joan of Arc. SRI AUROBINDO: Now? DR. MANILAL : Yes, Sir, when I was in Paris ten years ago I saw it. SRI AUROBINDO: "Now" is not ten years ago. When you said "now", I was astonished — how could Germany allow it? It is a French national festival. DR. MANILAL : It is said that Joan of Arc used to have some power or some power used to descend in her by which she defeated the English. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, what about it? DR. MANILAL : If so, how were they able to catch and burn her? The power couldn't protect her? SRI AUROBINDO: She had no power at that time. She herself said that she was given that power only for a short time - two years Page -988 or so — and after her work was finished she wanted to go away, but the king kept her back. DR. MANILAL : Wasn't it a sin to burn her? (Laughter) SRI AUROBINDO: They didn't care a damn whether it was a sin, not having studied Jainism like Manilal. (Laughter) DR. MANILAL : Tolstoy had some realisation, Sir, didn't he? SRI AUROBINDO: How? DR. MANILAL : Otherwise how could he write about angels etc? (Laughter) SRI AUROBINDO: I suppose you know that a writer has imagination. DR. MANILAL : But he led a moral life. SRI AUROBINDO: Oh! Did he? He never succeeded in living a moral life — as far as I know. He became a mystic, at least tried to but never led a moral life. Are you interested in Tolstoy? DR. MANILAL : In some principles of his. SRI AUROBINDO: What are they? DR. MANILAL : I have forgotten. Sir. (Laughter) It was long ago I read him. SRI AUROBINDO: Principles like those of Gandhi? DR. MANILAL : Yes, Sir. SRI AUROBINDO: Interested in Gandhi's principles? DR. MANILAL : Yes, Sir, in some of them when they are put into action. SRI AUROBINDO: Which? DR. MANILAL : Ahimsa, for instance. Of course, not Ahimsa as he preaches it. There is also truthfulness. SRI AUROBINDO: Nothing new. Ahimsa is more than twenty- five hundred years old and truthfulness very ancient too, more than six thousand years. DR. MANILAL : Millions and millions of years. Sir, according to Jainism. (Dr. Manilal mentioned a book.) SRI AUROBINDO: I am not interested in Jain history. PURANI: Where is the history? It is more a story like the Puranas. The topic changed. What exactly Sri Aurobindo refers to in the following is not remembered. SRI AUROBINDO: I have sent both the synopsis and the summary down to Nolini. I don't know how many pages they will be in Page -989 type. I think there will be about two hundred pages altogether. Manilal might find them easy. (Laughter) DR. MANILAL : Yes, Sir. (Laughter) NIRODBARAN: It may be more difficult to understand than the text, because the argument will be more compact. SRI AUROBINDO: Not necessarily. One may get only the salient points. NIRODBARAN: I haven't yet got a clear idea of the Absolute. (Laughter) SRI AUROBINDO (laughing): How could you have got a clear idea? If you had, all your troubles and difficulties would have been over. NIRODBARAN: I mean mentally. SRI AUROBINDO: Even mentally one can't get a clear idea. NIRODBARAN: What I mean is whether the Absolute stands for Sachchidananda, the Supreme, the Transcendent and is also beyond all of them. SRI AUROBINDO: Of course the Absolute is beyond all of them. But that doesn't mean the Absolute has no Sachchidananda aspect. But it is beyond all expression. NIRODBARAN: Sachchidananda also is beyond expression. SRI AUROBINDO: No, it is Existence, Consciousness and Bliss. DR. MANILAL : You can't have any idea or experience of the Absolute. SRI AUROBINDO: No, you can have an idea, even experience it, but you can't express it. When you try to express it, you limit it because expression comes from the mind and from mental ideas and thoughts. DR. MANILAL : It is like sweetness. Sir. There are so many kinds of sweetness, but we can't define it. SRI AUROBINDO: One can define it to a certain extent. DR. MANILAL : How will you express the sweetness of a pomegranate, Sir? SRI AUROBINDO: That is a question of style, but I am not going to do it; I have something more worthwhile. (Laughter) PURANI: Some define the taste by colour. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, the modern craze! PURANI: They will say the sweetness of an orange is yellow. SRI AUROBINDO : Pomegranate pink and shades of pink as pink I, pink II. Page -990 DR. MANILAL : But one can get the proof and knowledge by eating. PURANI: That is experience. DR. MANILAL : It is knowledge. SRI AUROBINDO: It is a knowledge of the taste, not a metaphysical knowledge. (Laughter) NIRODBARAN: Nolini Sen says they are feeling a more and more intense force, peace, etc. at Calcutta in their meditation. So intense that some people wonder if it isn't the supramental force that is descending. SRI AUROBINDO (laughing): No! It is the spiritual force. NIRODBARAN: Even the children feel it. SRI AUROBINDO: Then it must be supramental. (Laughter) The supramental is independent of conditions and circumstances. NIRODBARAN: It is curious that we don't feel anything. SRI AUROBINDO: The Supramental must have descended at Calcutta alone. (Laughter) NIRODBARAN: In the circumference to start with. SRI AUROBINDO (after a pause): These experiences of force, peace, etc. come easily to those who begin the Yoga in the mind or vital. Those who begin in the physical mind have a tremendous tussle. Experiences don't take place in them so easily and they come only after a long time. NIRODBARAN: Then I must be in the physical mind. (Laughter) SRI AUROBINDO: But those who open their mind or vital first are not very safe. I have seen many Yogis, not great ones, I mean those who have got some experiences and power in the vital and they are satisfied with that. They think that that is all and there is nothing beyond it. X by his sadhana has got some inert peace in the physical which he thinks to be real peace. PURANI: Professor Indra Sen was asking me about the theory of cause and effect. I told him I had not read the new volume of The Life Divine but, as far as I could remember, there is a sort of a continuous process of things and events going on. You cut off from that continuity any part and say that that must be the cause of this. I don't know if I am right. SRI AUROBINDO: What I have said in The Life Divine is antecedent and subsequent. What we consider to be the cause of a particular effect may not be the immediate cause. For that effect to be produced, so many forces have come into play; even the Page -991 opposing forces are necessary. The human mind sees only one factor and thinks that it is the cause. But as a matter of fact, without the combination and opposition of other forces, the result would not have been possible. The human mind can't look at anything as a whole, it sees only by parts. It is like switching on a light and thinking that the switching must be the cause of the light. But the one who designs the whole electric system has to consider many factors before light can be produced. 27 DECEMBER 1940DR. MANILAL : My shoulder pain is still persisting, Sir. SRI AUROBINDO : It is responding to the wind, probably. DR. MANILAL : Just near the insertion of the deltoid. Sir. Can't turn my arm backward. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, yes, I also have a pain in the same place. You must have passed it on to me. (Laughter) DR. MANILAL : How to get rid of it. Sir? SRI AUROBINDO: Don't identify with it. DR. MANILAL : But how? SRI AUROBINDO: It is a sort of inner movement. Or else make just those movements that bring on the pain. DR. MANILAL : That causes pain. Sir. SRI AUROBINDO: Doesn't matter. (Laughter) Or try to go up out of the body. Get rid of the old Sanskaras of the body. At this time Manilal was sipping Padodaka, the water in which the Guru's feet are washed, and applying some of it to his shoulder. PURANI: The pain has already gone. (Laughter) DR. MANILAL : It is very much there. PURANI: No, no, I tell you it has gone. SRI AUROBINDO: He wants to make you believe that the pain has gone but you don't believe it. Or rather you believe but your arm doesn't. You identify with the arm. DR. MANILAL : Last evening your knee was bending more than usual Sir, wasn't it? SRI AUROBINDO: Maybe. Page -992 DR. MANILAL : Coming almost to a right angle. SRI AUROBINDO: I could have bent it more but I was afraid that if I tried Purani would fall on me with the chair. (Laughter) Sri Aurobindo used to sit on the edge of a chair and do the bending. Purani would stand behind the chair and hold the back of it lest the chair fall forward with Sri Aurobindo 's weight on its edge. PURANI: No, I was prepared for all eventualities. DR. MANILAL : Arthur Luther, Sir, thrust his hand into the fire. SRI AUROBINDO: Luther? You mean Archbishop Cranmer? Your knowledge of history is extraordinary! Neither was his name Arthur. What about it? DR. MANILAL : When his hand was burning, did he not feel pain. Sir? How could he keep his hand in the fire? Did he do it stoically? SRI AUROBINDO: How stoically? DR. MANILAL : I mean in spite of the pain he endured the suffering. Or did he feel no pain at all? SRI AUROBINDO: He may not have done it stoically but out of religious feeling. One can separate oneself from the body and then pain doesn't affect one. DR. MANILAL : Is it possible. Sir? SRI AUROBINDO.-Why not? NIRODBARAN: Nishtha was asking again whether, since the Mother doesn't know everything, she has to tell everything to the Mother, every detail. She also says that everything comes from the Divine. In that case there is no need to do Yoga, I said. She is wondering whether it wouldn't be better for her to resume the vitamin pills she was taking before and says that the suggestion may have come from the Divine. SRI AUROBINDO: The suggestion to stop may have come from the Divine too. NIRODBARAN: I told her what you said to us the other day about the Mother knowing things. She thinks that mental prayer is not sincere and so won't be heard by the Divine. The prayer must come from a deeper source. SRI AUROBINDO: Of course, the deeper the source it comes from, the better it is. But why can't the Divine hear? Is he deaf to mental prayer? Page -993 NIRODBARAN: I said any sincere prayer is heard. SRI AUROBINDO: He may hear but whether it is answered is different. DR. MANILAL : Why couldn't it be answered, Sir? (Laughter) SRI AUROBINDO: Not couldn't be. Anything could be but it may not be. (Laughter) EVENING DR. MANILAL : According to our Jain Shastra, there are three or four signs, Sir, by which gods can be recognised. Their feet don't touch the ground, their eyes don't blink, the garlands around their necks don't dry up. SRI AUROBINDO: You will find those signs in the Mahabharata also. There is one more sign. The gods have no shadows. DR. MANILAL : And they don't perspire. Is that true, Sir? SRI AUROBINDO: Ask the gods. DR. MANILAL : You are above the gods, Sir. SRI AUROBINDO: I am on earth. DR. MANILAL : Some time ago the Mother said that the gods - Shiva, Vishnu, etc. — came to the meditation she was giving. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, and then? DR. MANILAL : In what form did they come. Sir? SRI AUROBINDO: What do you mean? DR. MANILAL : In an image form? SRI AUROBINDO: What is an image? Everything is an image. You are an image. Nirod is an image. DR. MANILAL : I mean could they be seen as concretely as, for instance, I see Nirod? SRI AUROBINDO: Shiva is as concrete to Vishnu as you are to Nirod. (Laughter) DR. MANILAL : Were they seen with open eyes? SRI AUROBINDO: One can see with open or closed eyes. But with what sense does one see the gods? DR. MANILAL : I don't know. Sir. That was not made clear by the Mother. SRI AUROBINDO: What is there to make clear? One sees them with a subtle sense, not with the material. Page -994 28 DECEMBER 1940In connection with the ex-Maharani's case, Purani reported that Dilip said he had heard from very reliable sources that the Madras judges had now become corrupt and took bribes. It was not so during Purani's time. SRI AUROBINDO: Everything going down? DR. MANILAL : In Bengal also there is much corruption. SRI AUROBINDO: In the High Court? DR. MANILAL : Yes, Sir. SRI AUROBINDO: I suppose it has come after the new Government — with the advent of H and B. I am wondering what Swaraj will be like. NIRODBARAN: Was there no corruption before? SRI AUROBINDO: Not so much. Bengal and Pondicheny were the only two exceptions. NIRODBARAN: H's ministry is almost openly doing these things. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, one has the impression that after this new Government, Bengal has become quite corrupt. There is one good thing about England: it is still free from corruption in public life. Of course England also was at one time corrupt but it has come out of that. Victoria's time was especially admirable. DR. MANILAL : France and America also are said to be very corrupt. SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, terrible! Not a single senate member is free from bribery and corruption. NIRODBARAN: What about your shoulder. Dr. Manilal? DR. MANILAL : Same! PURANI: You shouldn't have asked. It is all right, isn't it? I see it is all right. SRI AUROBINDO: It is all right without his knowing it. (Laughter) DR. MANILAL : Yes, Sir. Purani knows it without my knowing myself. SRI AUROBINDO: Knowledge by identity! (Laughter) DR. MANILAL : That would have been all right if by my eating Purani's hunger would have been satisfied. SRI AUROBINDO: But suppose it is by Purani's eating that your hunger would be satisfied? (Laughter) Page -995 DR. MANILAL : If it were, a lot of trouble would be saved, Sir, but it isn't; my hunger is still as strong. SRI AUROBINDO: Consider it an illusion. (Laughter) DR. MANILAL : I am not a Mayavadin, Sir. NIRODBARAN: Will knowledge by identity give one knowledge of diagnosis of a case? SRI AUROBINDO: If it is complete. If you identify only with the patient's mind, however, you may not know because the patient himself may not know. PURANI: What will you do with a diagnosis if you don't know the cure? DR. MANILAL : Identify with the Mother, not the patient, then you will know everything. NIRODBARAN: But one can also know the right drug. SRI AUROBINDO: Does the right drug always cure? NIRODBARAN: Why not? SRI AUROBINDO: Is every disease curable? DR. MANILAL : No, Sir, but why isn't it curable? SRI AUROBINDO: There are conditions. NIRODBARAN: The Divine may cure unconditionally. SRI AUROBINDO: In every case? NIRODBARAN: No, when he chooses. SRI AUROBINDO: That means a condition. DR. MANILAL : What are the conditions? Faith, aspiration? SRI AUROBINDO: You leave out the important element - receptivity. DR. MANILAL : Am I receptive. Sir? SRI AUROBINDO: You may be but your shoulder may not. DR. MANILAL : How to make it receptive? SRI AUROBINDO: Surgical operation. (Laughter) DR. MANILAL : With what scalpel, Sir? SRI AUROBINDO: Opening! NIRODBARAN: Do different parts have different degrees of receptivity? SRI AUROBINDO: Of course. The mind may be receptive but the vital and physical may not, or the mind and the vital may be receptive without the body being so. DR. MANILAL : But Laxmi's case was a miracle. Sir, I must say. I thought she would pass away but now she is quite a different person, looks young and energetic. Page -996 PURANI: It is a question of faith. She has faith in the Mother. DR. MANILAL : I also have faith. SRI AUROBINDO: You may but what about your arm? Purani wants to make you believe that you are all right but you or your arm won't believe it. DR. MANILAL : How can it believe when the pain is still there, Sir? Otherwise I have faith. PURANI: You are not open to the Force then. DR. MANILAL : All my cells are open. (Laughter) NIRODBARAN: To what? DR. MANILAL : To Sri Aurobindo's Force. SRI AUROBINDO: Even your rheumatic cells? (Laughter) DR. MANILAL : Yes, Sir. SRI AUROBINDO: Open to rheumatism. EVENING Purani was coughing a little. DR. MANILAL : You talk of Force. Why don't you apply it to your own cough? SRI AUROBINDO: He is driving the Germans out with his air force! 29 DECEMBER 1940DR. MANILAL : Sir, why are the flowers counted by the Mother when they are brought to her? SRI AUROBINDO: Why shouldn't they be? The stars are counted in astronomy. DR. MANILAL : The Mother has recently started counting them, Sir. SRI AUROBINDO: Astronomers also have recently started doing it. (Laughter) DR. MANILAL : Do they count them as beads are counted? SRI AUROBINDO: I don't know. You can ask them. (After a while) He, perhaps, wants to know if there is any Punya in it. (Laughter) Page -997 DR. MANILAL : No, Sir. There are transformation flowers in our house. Ambu picks them and brings them to the Mother. He says the Mother counts every one of them. When I asked the reason, he said, "All I know is that it has an occult reason. I don't know any more and can't tell you any more." SRI AUROBINDO: Nor can I. Even that much I don't know. (Laughter) EVENING DR. MANILAL : Have you read Savarkar's speech. Sir? SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. What about it? DR. MANILAL : What do you think of it? He says we should join the Army in order to profit by the experience. SRI AUROBINDO: It is a point of view forcefully stated. DR. MANILAL : Have you also read Chandravarkar's speech? SRI AUROBINDO: No. DR. MANILAL : He says the Morley-Minto reform scheme with its separate electorates is responsible for this Hindu-Muslim disunity. SRI AUROBINDO: Anybody could have said that. DR. MANILAL : Savarkar also says that the British can't be defeated. SRI AUROBINDO: That is nonsense. They were saved by Divine intervention during this War. They would have been smashed if Hitler had invaded England at the right time, just after the fall of France. DR. MANILAL : Why didn't the Divine intervene in France, Sir? SRI AUROBINDO: Because the French were corrupt and had no power of resistance. The English people have still some of their old virtues left to which support could be given. DR. MANILAL : They say that Hitler may occupy Italy if Italy meets with reverses. SRI AUROBINDO: That is one of the possibilities. But it will be hard for Germany to keep so many people under control. 31 DECEMBER 1940DR. MANILAL (as Nirodbaran was bending to touch Sri Aurobindo's knee): I see a trident. Sir, on Nirod's forehead. Page -998 SRI AUROBINDO: A trident? DR. MANILAL : Yes, Sir. NIRODBARAN: What does it mean? SRI AUROBINDO: It means that you are Shiva. (Laughter) NIRODBARAN (after a while): Some people want to know how to increase their receptivity. SRI AUROBINDO: The answer would be followed by "How to do that?" (Laughter) DR. MANILAL : One can understand how to open the lid of a vessel. One just pulls and it comes off. But (touching his head) how to open here? SRI AUROBINDO: Just open it. (Laughter) DR. MANILAL : Could you not smash our heads, Sir, as the blacksmith smashed Jupiter's head in the Greek story? SRI AUROBINDO: What is that story? I don't know of any blacksmith doing that. DR. MANILAL : That is what is given in children's books, Sir. SRI AUROBINDO: That may be for children. What I know is that Jupiter had a severe pain in his head. Suddenly his head burst open and Minerva came out of it. DR. MANILAL : What about Nirod's receptivity question, Sir? SRI AUROBINDO: You have to become quiet, become wide and open or become open and wide. NIRODBARAN: Is not wideness a result of quietness? SRI AUROBINDO: Not necessarily; one may be wide without being quiet. DR. MANILAL : It seems to me, Sir, quietude of the mind is most important. SRI AUROBINDO: Not only the mind, there is the vital, then the physical — and (nodding his head) then the Inconscient. (Laughter) DR. MANILAL : End of the story. Sir? (Laughter) SRI AUROBINDO: Yes! When the Inconscient is in a proper condition of quietude, you are able to receive. DR. MANILAL : That would mean throwing away all disturbances. SRI AUROBINDO: Not all. There is a central quietness -when the stuff of the mind becomes quiet — a condition in which one can receive in spite of all disturbances. DR. MANILAL : Am I receptive, Sir? (Laughter) SRI AUROBINDO : Your mind may be but your body is not. Page -999 DR. MANILAL : What percentage of receptivity have I, Sir? SRI AUROBINDO: These things don't go by percentage. Besides, receptivity is infinite. DR. MANILAL : How to know if one is receptive? SRI AUROBINDO: If you receive you know you are receptive. (Laughter) DR. MANILAL : My shoulder is the same, Sir - painful as before. SRI AUROBINDO: That means it doesn't receive and so is not receptive.
EVENING DR. MANILAL : They speak of a golden lid, Sir, above the head which covers the face of the Sun. Is it a matter of experience? SRI AUROBINDO: Of course. DR. MANILAL : Is it in the subtle body that one feels these things? SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, one feels a sense of boring, drilling, hammering — so many things. Never had any such an experience? DR. MANILAL : Yes, Sir. I had it, but long ago. It was marvellous, Sir, at the time. Even while going in a carriage I used to feel the descent of Ananda, Force, etc. Now all that is past history. (Laughter) SRI AUROBINDO: They were experiences in the mind. Never had any force descending into the vital? DR. MANILAL : No, Sir! SRI AUROBINDO: You are closed in the vital then and, when the vital opens, you may be closed in the physical. (Laughter) DR. MANILAL : Tragedy after tragedy, Sir. Experience of ascent and descent also stopped. Sir. SRI AUROBINDO : Why? Didn't you find it interesting? DR. MANILAL : Very interesting. Page -1000 |